indiefilmgal
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I am thinkin about getting one of the two but I am not sure which one is better in the long run
Final cut vs avid?
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That's a tough call. I faced the same dilemma a couple of months ago and decided to get Final Cut, because it fit my needs better. But price wasn't an issue for me. I'm a student, so I can get Avid for $295 and Final Cut for $700. That discount price for Avid was pretty tempting, but I went with FCS, primarily for its applications outside video editing.
Comparing Final Cut Pro and Avid Media Composer, Avid is probably better overall as a video editor; it's an industry standard too. However, Avid is quite a bit harder to master the interface and workflow, but once you do, editing is very smooth. Still, I wanted FCS more because it comes with Soundtrack Pro, Motion, Color, and lots of other cool applications. Soundtrack Pro was a big one for me. Before, I did my editing on Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 and it was a major pain to get royalty free music. I tried SonicFire Pro and Sony Cinescore and they pretty much sucked...compared to Soundtrack, at least.
So basically, Avid is probably a bit more powerful an editor, but FCS is an entire production package. That was huge in my book, which is why I went with Final Cut Studio.....besides, I'm saving up for a Red Scarlet, and Red cameras run better on FCS.
That's just my side of it though...There are plenty of people who would argue Avid all the way.
Comparing Final Cut Pro and Avid Media Composer, Avid is probably better overall as a video editor; it's an industry standard too. However, Avid is quite a bit harder to master the interface and workflow, but once you do, editing is very smooth. Still, I wanted FCS more because it comes with Soundtrack Pro, Motion, Color, and lots of other cool applications. Soundtrack Pro was a big one for me. Before, I did my editing on Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 and it was a major pain to get royalty free music. I tried SonicFire Pro and Sony Cinescore and they pretty much sucked...compared to Soundtrack, at least.
So basically, Avid is probably a bit more powerful an editor, but FCS is an entire production package. That was huge in my book, which is why I went with Final Cut Studio.....besides, I'm saving up for a Red Scarlet, and Red cameras run better on FCS.
That's just my side of it though...There are plenty of people who would argue Avid all the way.
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BenB
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Avid is not, in fact, any more "powerful" than Final Cut Pro, they both have all the tools there. Final Cut owns the majority of the independent production and broadcast market at present. I have a very healthy respect for Avid, it is a great NLE. But they have fallen behind on development, pricing, and community support. As you will notice, they are in the middle of making major changes: slimming down the product line, reducing prices, and trying to enact a corporate level creation of community support. All of this falls in line with Apple's strategy. Except Final Cut's community support has always been something initiated at a grass roots level. It'll be interesting to see if Avid can cause that to happen from the corporate level down.
But they are both pretty equal as far as professional NLE's go. And if you are looking for film/broadcast jobs, these are the only two out there. Knowing both makes you even more valuable in the job market.
Final Cut, of the two, is the way I went way back at the release of version 1.0, because Avid was simply not available to independents or students. Today Avid is shaping up. And as long as Avid and Final Cut fight it out, we the end users will continue to get well developed, top rate products. Gotta love healthy competition.
But they are both pretty equal as far as professional NLE's go. And if you are looking for film/broadcast jobs, these are the only two out there. Knowing both makes you even more valuable in the job market.
Final Cut, of the two, is the way I went way back at the release of version 1.0, because Avid was simply not available to independents or students. Today Avid is shaping up. And as long as Avid and Final Cut fight it out, we the end users will continue to get well developed, top rate products. Gotta love healthy competition.
HDhead
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FCP offers kind of flexibility Media Composer doesn't allow. The problem is that you need to know what you're doing or you can really mess yourself up.
I get involved several times a month with poorly setup FCP projects that come to the finishing stage all mangled and can not pass QC without a ton of extra work. This is not really a failure of FCP. It allows you to do things that Avid does not (and for a good reason).
If you get FCP you need to learn your technical craft really well before you start editing.
There are pros and cons to the each system. Considering overall vertically integrated workflow is another consideration. Are you going to work from home and finish projects yourself? Then FCP may be a better choice because it's better suited for file based workflows.
Are you going to finish your work at a post facility eventually? Avid Media Composer may be a better choice then. The reasons are that there are fewer facilities that have fully setup FCP online bays.
I get involved several times a month with poorly setup FCP projects that come to the finishing stage all mangled and can not pass QC without a ton of extra work. This is not really a failure of FCP. It allows you to do things that Avid does not (and for a good reason).
If you get FCP you need to learn your technical craft really well before you start editing.
There are pros and cons to the each system. Considering overall vertically integrated workflow is another consideration. Are you going to work from home and finish projects yourself? Then FCP may be a better choice because it's better suited for file based workflows.
Are you going to finish your work at a post facility eventually? Avid Media Composer may be a better choice then. The reasons are that there are fewer facilities that have fully setup FCP online bays.
djdragon7k
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Final cut or avid
Final cut or avid
I've been using pinnacle studio v.11. as well as windows movie maker, but soon I am getting a mac so i was wonder which most people think is better, imovie or final cut?
-Dj
Final cut or avid
I've been using pinnacle studio v.11. as well as windows movie maker, but soon I am getting a mac so i was wonder which most people think is better, imovie or final cut?
-Dj
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BenB
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FCP has much more of the market now than many folks realize. It owns the majority of the indie production and broadcast markets now (true, I'm not making this up). Most post houses do in fact have FCP set ups. As for film work, Avid and FCP are neck and neck. You'll save money with FCP, too.
As far as "...you can mess yourself up", well, FCP is as easy to learn and use as any NLE is, and that statement could apply to any pro level NLE.
As for ease of learning, FCP is super easy to learn. There are tons of free tutorials on-line (way more so than there are for Avid), and great books like the Apple Pro Training Series book for Final Cut Pro 6. It's not the mechanical monster the previous poster makes it out to be. It's super easy to learn and use, and there are more resources for Final Cut Studio on-line than any other NLE product out. And again, most post houses do in fact have FCP edit bays set up.
As for iMovie vs FCP, they're two totally different animals. iMovie is free on all Macs, and is for the everyday user who wants to make movies out of their vacation videos. Final Cut Pro is a full fledged professional editing application that comes bundled with Final Cut Studio. It's apples to onions comparing the two.
As far as "...you can mess yourself up", well, FCP is as easy to learn and use as any NLE is, and that statement could apply to any pro level NLE.
As for ease of learning, FCP is super easy to learn. There are tons of free tutorials on-line (way more so than there are for Avid), and great books like the Apple Pro Training Series book for Final Cut Pro 6. It's not the mechanical monster the previous poster makes it out to be. It's super easy to learn and use, and there are more resources for Final Cut Studio on-line than any other NLE product out. And again, most post houses do in fact have FCP edit bays set up.
As for iMovie vs FCP, they're two totally different animals. iMovie is free on all Macs, and is for the everyday user who wants to make movies out of their vacation videos. Final Cut Pro is a full fledged professional editing application that comes bundled with Final Cut Studio. It's apples to onions comparing the two.
I've used both FCP and Avid Xpress and they're both good editing programs. I'd say it depends on what interface feels right to you and certainly what computer you're using. FCP will only work on a Mac (one of its shortcomings in my opinion), but Avid works on both Mac and PC.
FCP is easier to understand than Avid. Capturing is especially very user-friendly in FCP.
I'd say if you have a Mac and are new to editing or just prefer a user-friendly interface go with FCP. If you already know your way around FCP and/or Avid then it's up to you which one is right.
FCP is easier to understand than Avid. Capturing is especially very user-friendly in FCP.
I'd say if you have a Mac and are new to editing or just prefer a user-friendly interface go with FCP. If you already know your way around FCP and/or Avid then it's up to you which one is right.
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BenB
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What NLE also depends on what you want to do. IF you want to work for a broadcast company, or independent production company, 48% of that market it Final Cut, with only about 30 some odd percent Avid. Film is pretty 50/50 FCP/Avid. If you want to do your own Indie and have it go to a film print, FCP or Avid are pretty much the only two set up to do that. If you just want to fool around, Vegas, Premiere Pro, or any of the others work just fine, and don't bog you down with all the pro features and apps of Final Cut Studio such as Color, Cinetools, Motion, etc. Just depends on what you want to do, and where you want to go.
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BenB
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Even digital delivery demands EDL's and film prints. Digital delivery is a digital print from the physical celluloid media, normally. And there are no film's edited on Vegas, as far as I'm aware. Vegas does not have FCP's and Avid's film conform tools. There's a lot of data that has to go with the media that is film specific, both in metadata, and in the EDL's. And Vegas still has no internal color grading that is film quality.
The fact still remains, FCP is used in the majority of broadcast and independent production facilities, is ahead by a tad in scholastic institutions, and neck and neck with FCP in film. No commercial facility is using Vegas for film. If Vegas did make headway into film with some miraculous update, it would be years before you saw it become mainstream. It's a great NLE for digital video, but not for broadcast for film. Both Avid and FCP have server apps, etc, and Vegas is simply not there yet. I won't even get into the audio requirements for broadcast and film that Vegas still lacks. Not to mention Macs are growing in numbers faster than the IT industry as a whole is growing. But for indie DV, Vegas is great.
The fact still remains, FCP is used in the majority of broadcast and independent production facilities, is ahead by a tad in scholastic institutions, and neck and neck with FCP in film. No commercial facility is using Vegas for film. If Vegas did make headway into film with some miraculous update, it would be years before you saw it become mainstream. It's a great NLE for digital video, but not for broadcast for film. Both Avid and FCP have server apps, etc, and Vegas is simply not there yet. I won't even get into the audio requirements for broadcast and film that Vegas still lacks. Not to mention Macs are growing in numbers faster than the IT industry as a whole is growing. But for indie DV, Vegas is great.
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Some good points. I'm currently using Vegas both 8.c and 8.1 (64bit version), but will be adding Avid MCP to use on my first feature, even though I'm going direct to DVD and Web.
One thing I'll still be using Vegas or Acid Pro for is surround mixing which is built into either program. You can export QT wrapped DNxHD 36, open in Acid Pro or Vegas, do foley, music, adr, surround mix... then export 6 channel audio to broadcast wave, bring back in to Avid (assuming you have picture lock before doing this). If QT wrapped DNxHD is a problem there are plenty of free programs to convert it to AVI.
I'm sticking with Windows, currently Vista 64 Ultimate, because of other software that I use.
Vegas is perfectly capable of doing feature length work, especially when it originates digitally. In version 8, the color grading tools are 32bit float and Vegas has secondary color correction tools built in as well. It's media management tools have a look and feel very similar to Avid, though not as powerful. They are some of most underutilized features of Vegas.
Still...using Avid gives me access to so many other options. I'm also wanting to move into Post work full time, so learning, and getting certified on Avid is important to be able to do that. With recent price cuts and support for GPU based rendering Avid MCP is definitely looking good.
BTW, Avid is really big in the Fed Govt sector.
Joe Carney
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BenB
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DNxHD is not a super duper industry standard, just a nice Windows platfrom. SoundTrack Pro, part of Final Cut Sudio, has been doing surround sound, and can use Acid loop, etc, for years now. And comes with one of the largest and best collections of loops, beds, folley, an effects. Color, part of Final Cut Studio, is full film level color grading with 8 levels of secondaries, custom geometry an matte tools, effects node tools, etc. Vegas still is not up to FCP standards. And I've yet to see a Hollywood feature done with Vegas.
You can use whatever NLE you like, that's your choice. But this is an FCP thread here. And the Goverment market is 50/50 Avid FCP. I teach Homeland Security personnel all the time on Final Cut Studio. I teach editors from the biggest news and cable networks. I consult for lots of local level TV stations and colleges. Every FCP class I teach has students just about to graduate, or just graduated from university film schools who were taught Avid, but the jobs they find are FCP. I just know what I see, and what the industry statistics are.
Like I said, Vegas is a good NLE, but it's not doing films yet, and it's color/luma grading tools are not up to what would be considered full film level yet.
You can use whatever NLE you like, that's your choice. But this is an FCP thread here. And the Goverment market is 50/50 Avid FCP. I teach Homeland Security personnel all the time on Final Cut Studio. I teach editors from the biggest news and cable networks. I consult for lots of local level TV stations and colleges. Every FCP class I teach has students just about to graduate, or just graduated from university film schools who were taught Avid, but the jobs they find are FCP. I just know what I see, and what the industry statistics are.
Like I said, Vegas is a good NLE, but it's not doing films yet, and it's color/luma grading tools are not up to what would be considered full film level yet.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. I never claimed Vegas was as good as FCP for editing. Up here in the DC area Avid holds considerable market share. Granted Color is superior to Vegas color tools, but since I already own it, no sense in letting it just sit around. I was just offering some perspective. Not trying to hijack the FCP thread.
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BenB
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Yes, Avid is still big in the Government market, but even that market is losing shares to FCP. It's the last market Avid has the majority of over FCP.
I think discussions of Vegas should be in the Vegas forum, anyway.
I think discussions of Vegas should be in the Vegas forum, anyway.
WorkShop
WorkShop
Ben, when can you do a workshops with us here in NYC? I would like to hear you talk about these things and do some basic to advanced workshops or classes hear in NYC. I would seriously like to work something out. i have low to now budget these days but i really want to do these kinds of things.
WorkShop
Ben, when can you do a workshops with us here in NYC? I would like to hear you talk about these things and do some basic to advanced workshops or classes hear in NYC. I would seriously like to work something out. i have low to now budget these days but i really want to do these kinds of things.
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BenB
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Pay my fee and I'm there! Simple as that. Do you have someone there who is capable of organizing/producing such an event? Email me privately for details.
BTW, there's an independent market survey done just before NAB every year. No vendors pay or influence it. It has shown that FCP has gained market share by leaps and bounds over the past 3 years. Last year FCP had something like 46% of the market, Avid had something like 34%. This year (2009) FCP has just over 50% of the professional post-production market, Avid has dropped to about 18%, Premiere Pro to about 7%. Bear in mind FCP has not done any major overhauls in those three years, where all other NLE's have, becoming more and more FCP-like, and still lost market shares.
Avid has also started to play very dirty pool to regain market share. They're taking huge losses on profit to basically get into schools for next to free. I've several stories of Avid's shenanigans of late, but won't post them publicly.
Avid still has three different, confusing choices to make, which overlap each other, FCP does it all in one package. The overwhelming majority of television and independent studios are FCP now, not Avid. And with the release of Snow Leopard, IMHO, Final Cut Studio 3 won't been seen until after Snow Leopard is released, and will have unbelievable speed boosts, resource usage boots, just and over all major screaming piece of post-production technology.
Be aware that Snow Leopard will be Intel chip only, and Final Cut Studio 3 may be Intel chip only, as all apps for Snow Leopard on the new Intel chips is dropping (from what I understand) the legacy codes, as they are holding back the full power of OS X and Intel.
I'm putting my money on the fact that with Snow Leopard and Final Cut Studio 3, Final Cut will be untouchable for the price.
BTW, there's an independent market survey done just before NAB every year. No vendors pay or influence it. It has shown that FCP has gained market share by leaps and bounds over the past 3 years. Last year FCP had something like 46% of the market, Avid had something like 34%. This year (2009) FCP has just over 50% of the professional post-production market, Avid has dropped to about 18%, Premiere Pro to about 7%. Bear in mind FCP has not done any major overhauls in those three years, where all other NLE's have, becoming more and more FCP-like, and still lost market shares.
Avid has also started to play very dirty pool to regain market share. They're taking huge losses on profit to basically get into schools for next to free. I've several stories of Avid's shenanigans of late, but won't post them publicly.
Avid still has three different, confusing choices to make, which overlap each other, FCP does it all in one package. The overwhelming majority of television and independent studios are FCP now, not Avid. And with the release of Snow Leopard, IMHO, Final Cut Studio 3 won't been seen until after Snow Leopard is released, and will have unbelievable speed boosts, resource usage boots, just and over all major screaming piece of post-production technology.
Be aware that Snow Leopard will be Intel chip only, and Final Cut Studio 3 may be Intel chip only, as all apps for Snow Leopard on the new Intel chips is dropping (from what I understand) the legacy codes, as they are holding back the full power of OS X and Intel.
I'm putting my money on the fact that with Snow Leopard and Final Cut Studio 3, Final Cut will be untouchable for the price.
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BenB
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Um, not sure how to answer this. Avid wasn't the first, it built on NLE's that came before it, it was just the most popular of it's time. The question is pretty open ended, not sure exactly what you mean.
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BenB
Guest
You need to post this to the Avid forum, I'd think. We're FCP guys here.
http://www.studentfilmmakersforums.com/bb/forumdisplay.php?f=24
http://www.studentfilmmakersforums.com/bb/forumdisplay.php?f=24
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