ending the story
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DerekEastham
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What I meant by free-form... I'm probably using the wrong wording here... The style I use, is that I wait until I feel the urge & need to write... then I just sit down and let it pour out of me. I just empty's out onto the page... then I go back and edit it several times.
Not the best way to write... but you're right about the mental outline... I've always got one before I begin... and the story tends to stick to that... though even that outline rewrites itself several times over.
About when I wrote "Structure"... I totally used the wrong wording... terrible english there... I meant that when you've reached another point where you know what's going on and you no longer feel blocked, then you can write in the more structured manner that you had before...
maybe I should drop this point, because I think I've lost my point in here... somewhere... :?:
As for finding a natural ending... I know it can be a very hard thing to do... especially when you've invested so much time and effort into a story...
Maybe it's just a part of the way I write... but I always begin writing when and where the story begins in my head... and I stop when the story in my head just... runs out.
There's really no other way for me to explain it... not literally at least... but perhaps I can create a metaphore to explain what I mean...
The way I understand films... be they shorts, features or anything inbetween... is that they are moments in time... they don't necessarily always start at the very begining ore end at the very end of a story... they simply cover a moment of time, during which the story takes place.
Therefore, I never feel trapped by where to begin or end the story... my stories don't have to start at birth and end at death... maybe they begin on Monday and end on the following Thursday... maybe they cover only a few moments... it really all depends on which moment in time I feel that I must tell.
A really good example of what I mean, is my short film entitled "The Duel." It begins on a dock... there's a good guy & a bad guy... they face off in a duel reminiscient of the old west... and when they draw to fire, the movie ends... credits roll, and the guns fire...
The reason I bother to synopsize my film... is to show you the specific moment in time that my story covers... the film begins where the story begins in my head, and ends where it ended in my head.
Lots of people would probably say that I took the easy way out... leaving the ending upto the audience... but to me, it was all I had to tell... instead of forcing myself to write something I didn't have inside me, I decided to go with my gut and end it right there... I also like that it's not clear who wins, but that's not the point.
Hopefully this helps you to understand my thoughs on how I write... and what I meant by allowing the story to end itself. There's closure... but it's upto the audience to fill in the blank at the begining and the end... How did it begin? Who wins? I seriously don't know... I intend to oneday write a feature script based on this short.
As for the guarantee of communicating a "natural & believable" end to the audience... well, there is no guarantee...
the only way to discover that, is to gather several test audiences... show them the film when it's nearly done... and gauge their reactions... ask what they liked, what they didn't like...
and remember, if they liked the film and they want to know what's next, or they want more... it dosen't necessarily mean that the film dosen't end well... it means that perhaps you should continue the story in another film... perhaps, if it's inside of you, it's worth telling the next part of the story.
Ok... I think I'll wait for you to respond to that section before we discuss it any further...
However, there was another bit that you asked me about... or perahps "prompted" is a better describing word here...
Well, you're absolutely right that this is a different subject... but this is also where opinions come into play.
As I understand it... there is a level of gramar and form expected of a screenplay... and there are standards that determine what is and is not acceptable... however, it all depends on where you want your script to go.
Here are these standards & "rules" as I understand them: (in no particular order)
> screenplay's are just that... they're screenplays... save the shot descriptions, angles and other techno-mumbo-jumbo for a shooting script
> never assume that the reader will know what's happening in a scene. If you don't write that "Jayne picks up a hairbrush" they're not going to know that she picked up the hairbrush... they aren't mind readers, they're script readers.
> Do not write in the following manner(s): "We see....." "Jayne give a smile to..." "Now we see..." "They picked up..." "they sat up" "Now the sound of _________ can be heard"
This is just bad taste, and inappropriate tense & form for a script for the following reasons:
#1 - "We" don't "see" anything... just tell us what's happening, don't tell us that we're seeing it, because you'll make that happen when you shoot it, at the moment, we're not seeing it, we're reading it.
#2 - Who is "we" anyways? we as in you and I? what about the audience, them too? who was "we" when you wrote it? (it just dosen't make any sense)
#3 - Nobody ever "gives" someone else a smile... they simply "smile at eachother." Never give it, just do it.
#4 - Now nothing... I know it's now, because I'm reading it right now... if it was going to happen earlier or later, it should be written then, not now... never bother with "now" in a script... ever... unless it's dialogue.
#5 - When you're writing a script, no-one ever "sat" or "picked" up anything... they just "SIT" or "PICK UP"... scripts are in the present tense, because it's happening at that moment, so we see them pick it up... if they already "picked" something up, then they're now holding it... Present Tense!
#6 - When a sound is going to be heard, you should describe what is happening to create the sound. "Traffic passes behind Jacob as he walks toward Jayne" describes that the sound of traffic will obviously be heard when he's walking toward Jayne... we don't need to know that "Now the sound of traffic can be heard as..." however, there are some instances some of you might question... when noise is all that's happening, how do you write that (ie: over black)... well, "the sound of glass breaking can now be heard," is not how it goes... it would be better written:
BLACK
A window breaks. A teapot whistles. Jacob scuttles across the floor.
FADE IN:
.....
(please forgive the lack of proper formatting on the web)
Then we'll know that the sound of a window breaking and a teapot whistling... how and when you want them to happen, is a decision for production and post production... and something you should write in your notes... always take notes.
Ok, so that's a basic run-down of the "rules" as I understand them, for writing a screenplay... be it a short, a feature, or something else.
Can't wait to continue the discussion!
(This is loads of fun!... seriously)
Not the best way to write... but you're right about the mental outline... I've always got one before I begin... and the story tends to stick to that... though even that outline rewrites itself several times over.
About when I wrote "Structure"... I totally used the wrong wording... terrible english there... I meant that when you've reached another point where you know what's going on and you no longer feel blocked, then you can write in the more structured manner that you had before...
maybe I should drop this point, because I think I've lost my point in here... somewhere... :?:
As for finding a natural ending... I know it can be a very hard thing to do... especially when you've invested so much time and effort into a story...
Maybe it's just a part of the way I write... but I always begin writing when and where the story begins in my head... and I stop when the story in my head just... runs out.
There's really no other way for me to explain it... not literally at least... but perhaps I can create a metaphore to explain what I mean...
The way I understand films... be they shorts, features or anything inbetween... is that they are moments in time... they don't necessarily always start at the very begining ore end at the very end of a story... they simply cover a moment of time, during which the story takes place.
Therefore, I never feel trapped by where to begin or end the story... my stories don't have to start at birth and end at death... maybe they begin on Monday and end on the following Thursday... maybe they cover only a few moments... it really all depends on which moment in time I feel that I must tell.
A really good example of what I mean, is my short film entitled "The Duel." It begins on a dock... there's a good guy & a bad guy... they face off in a duel reminiscient of the old west... and when they draw to fire, the movie ends... credits roll, and the guns fire...
The reason I bother to synopsize my film... is to show you the specific moment in time that my story covers... the film begins where the story begins in my head, and ends where it ended in my head.
Lots of people would probably say that I took the easy way out... leaving the ending upto the audience... but to me, it was all I had to tell... instead of forcing myself to write something I didn't have inside me, I decided to go with my gut and end it right there... I also like that it's not clear who wins, but that's not the point.
Hopefully this helps you to understand my thoughs on how I write... and what I meant by allowing the story to end itself. There's closure... but it's upto the audience to fill in the blank at the begining and the end... How did it begin? Who wins? I seriously don't know... I intend to oneday write a feature script based on this short.
As for the guarantee of communicating a "natural & believable" end to the audience... well, there is no guarantee...
the only way to discover that, is to gather several test audiences... show them the film when it's nearly done... and gauge their reactions... ask what they liked, what they didn't like...
and remember, if they liked the film and they want to know what's next, or they want more... it dosen't necessarily mean that the film dosen't end well... it means that perhaps you should continue the story in another film... perhaps, if it's inside of you, it's worth telling the next part of the story.
Ok... I think I'll wait for you to respond to that section before we discuss it any further...
However, there was another bit that you asked me about... or perahps "prompted" is a better describing word here...
Well, you're absolutely right that this is a different subject... but this is also where opinions come into play.
As I understand it... there is a level of gramar and form expected of a screenplay... and there are standards that determine what is and is not acceptable... however, it all depends on where you want your script to go.
Here are these standards & "rules" as I understand them: (in no particular order)
> screenplay's are just that... they're screenplays... save the shot descriptions, angles and other techno-mumbo-jumbo for a shooting script
> never assume that the reader will know what's happening in a scene. If you don't write that "Jayne picks up a hairbrush" they're not going to know that she picked up the hairbrush... they aren't mind readers, they're script readers.
> Do not write in the following manner(s): "We see....." "Jayne give a smile to..." "Now we see..." "They picked up..." "they sat up" "Now the sound of _________ can be heard"
This is just bad taste, and inappropriate tense & form for a script for the following reasons:
#1 - "We" don't "see" anything... just tell us what's happening, don't tell us that we're seeing it, because you'll make that happen when you shoot it, at the moment, we're not seeing it, we're reading it.
#2 - Who is "we" anyways? we as in you and I? what about the audience, them too? who was "we" when you wrote it? (it just dosen't make any sense)
#3 - Nobody ever "gives" someone else a smile... they simply "smile at eachother." Never give it, just do it.
#4 - Now nothing... I know it's now, because I'm reading it right now... if it was going to happen earlier or later, it should be written then, not now... never bother with "now" in a script... ever... unless it's dialogue.
#5 - When you're writing a script, no-one ever "sat" or "picked" up anything... they just "SIT" or "PICK UP"... scripts are in the present tense, because it's happening at that moment, so we see them pick it up... if they already "picked" something up, then they're now holding it... Present Tense!
#6 - When a sound is going to be heard, you should describe what is happening to create the sound. "Traffic passes behind Jacob as he walks toward Jayne" describes that the sound of traffic will obviously be heard when he's walking toward Jayne... we don't need to know that "Now the sound of traffic can be heard as..." however, there are some instances some of you might question... when noise is all that's happening, how do you write that (ie: over black)... well, "the sound of glass breaking can now be heard," is not how it goes... it would be better written:
BLACK
A window breaks. A teapot whistles. Jacob scuttles across the floor.
FADE IN:
.....
(please forgive the lack of proper formatting on the web)
Then we'll know that the sound of a window breaking and a teapot whistling... how and when you want them to happen, is a decision for production and post production... and something you should write in your notes... always take notes.
Ok, so that's a basic run-down of the "rules" as I understand them, for writing a screenplay... be it a short, a feature, or something else.
Can't wait to continue the discussion!
(This is loads of fun!... seriously
)
A-ha! So you admit that you use some form of an outline. So that ends one loop.
Regarding your example of "The Duel," I've never seen it, but the way that you described it, I wouldn't necessarily classify or define that as a "story," but it sounds more like a "scene." But that's a different subject. What parts would define it as a story? What elements need to be present for a composition to be classified as a story or tale rather than just a scene or a few scenes put together?
What if the test audiences are biased? But that's a different subject. That's the only way to discover that? I'm sure there are also ways for a person to analyze his or her own script and story structure so that they feel atleast a little bit convinced that they provided what they believe to be a good story with a natural ending. There are techniques in storytelling and script writing that can assist in providing a more natural and believable ending to one's story and help the writer to double check his or her work for consistency.
Regarding your example of "The Duel," I've never seen it, but the way that you described it, I wouldn't necessarily classify or define that as a "story," but it sounds more like a "scene." But that's a different subject. What parts would define it as a story? What elements need to be present for a composition to be classified as a story or tale rather than just a scene or a few scenes put together?
DerekEastham said:
What if the test audiences are biased? But that's a different subject. That's the only way to discover that? I'm sure there are also ways for a person to analyze his or her own script and story structure so that they feel atleast a little bit convinced that they provided what they believe to be a good story with a natural ending. There are techniques in storytelling and script writing that can assist in providing a more natural and believable ending to one's story and help the writer to double check his or her work for consistency.
D
DerekEastham
Guest
As for a viewing of my film, "The Duel," the music clearance should be coming along in the next few weeks... at that time, it'll be live and streaming on several web-sites, including my own... and maybe/hopefully this one?
As for how I define a story... it has something that feels like a begining... a middle, and an end... however, so do scenes...
Scenes begin, have a middle, and an end.
The reason that I refer to "The Duel" as a story, is because it is just that... only it's a short story. A story dosen't necessarily have to be told in multiple scenes or 30 minutes or longer... it just needs to be told, and in the world of filmmaking the storyteller is the filmmaker
The elements that I would classify as "necessary" for a story to be classified as a story instead of a scene are:
#1 - A Begining
#2 - A Middle
#3 - An End
#4 - A Problem
#5 - A Resolution
Now, does the beginning or end necessarily have to be all there is to tell... not in my opinion...
For instance... I truely love the fact that the end of the Kill Bill saga leaves open the possiblity that the story might continue someday... Beatrice, her daughter & Ellie are still alive... so is Nikita... so, there's no absolution to the closure of the film... yet when part 2 "ends", it feels as though the movie is over...
As for your coments on determining if an ending works or not... you're right... a test audience isn't the only way... and they're not going to be an absolute opinion...
However, you must realize that wether a single person, a test audience or even ten thousand people love the way your film ends... it still does not garuntee that every person who sees the film will like the ending, or feel that it was a good or natural ending.
It's easy enough to gauge your own ending... using test audiences can help you determine (in general terms) how many people (percentages) your ending will work for...
And yes... I do admit to using an outline... but it's mostly mental... I don't work very well from the written down outlines... but the mental outline that we all have is always present in my work. you got me there :lol:
I'm curious how you define a "story" as opposed to a "scene"...
myself, I believe a story can be told in one scene... it would just be a short story... and in essence, each scene of a movie tells a short story that is connected to the whole... each scene is a moment in time, and each preceding and following scene is not necessarily immediately there after...
so, in essence... the short film does not necessarily have to be anything more than a scene (if that fits your story)... but it should still feel as though it begins and ends... wether the story ends or not... is, in my opinion, irrelevant... perhaps that's just me... perhaps not... but that's just my own point of view...
Looking forward to hearing from you again!
As for how I define a story... it has something that feels like a begining... a middle, and an end... however, so do scenes...
Scenes begin, have a middle, and an end.
The reason that I refer to "The Duel" as a story, is because it is just that... only it's a short story. A story dosen't necessarily have to be told in multiple scenes or 30 minutes or longer... it just needs to be told, and in the world of filmmaking the storyteller is the filmmaker
The elements that I would classify as "necessary" for a story to be classified as a story instead of a scene are:
#1 - A Begining
#2 - A Middle
#3 - An End
#4 - A Problem
#5 - A Resolution
Now, does the beginning or end necessarily have to be all there is to tell... not in my opinion...
For instance... I truely love the fact that the end of the Kill Bill saga leaves open the possiblity that the story might continue someday... Beatrice, her daughter & Ellie are still alive... so is Nikita... so, there's no absolution to the closure of the film... yet when part 2 "ends", it feels as though the movie is over...
As for your coments on determining if an ending works or not... you're right... a test audience isn't the only way... and they're not going to be an absolute opinion...
However, you must realize that wether a single person, a test audience or even ten thousand people love the way your film ends... it still does not garuntee that every person who sees the film will like the ending, or feel that it was a good or natural ending.
It's easy enough to gauge your own ending... using test audiences can help you determine (in general terms) how many people (percentages) your ending will work for...
And yes... I do admit to using an outline... but it's mostly mental... I don't work very well from the written down outlines... but the mental outline that we all have is always present in my work.
you got me there :lol: I'm curious how you define a "story" as opposed to a "scene"...
myself, I believe a story can be told in one scene... it would just be a short story... and in essence, each scene of a movie tells a short story that is connected to the whole... each scene is a moment in time, and each preceding and following scene is not necessarily immediately there after...
so, in essence... the short film does not necessarily have to be anything more than a scene (if that fits your story)... but it should still feel as though it begins and ends... wether the story ends or not... is, in my opinion, irrelevant... perhaps that's just me... perhaps not... but that's just my own point of view...
Looking forward to hearing from you again!
No, the beginning or end doesn't have to be all there, but then one would have a poorly written story.
Who is still alive? I didn't see Part 2 yet. Maybe I will rent it tonight. ... Well, in the case where you're going to have sequels, the ending doesn't give complete closure to the story because if it did, why would anyone want to see the sequel for? But the "ending" of the first Kill Bill did technically give closure to the plot in that it answered the storyline/story question, which had to do with revenge. Did the main character get her revenge? Did she succeed in killing the people on her list? The answer is either "yes," "no," or "yes, but..."
I don't think a story can be told in one scene. There are short stories, short shorts, flash fiction, etc., but a clip showing one scene is more like a sound byte.
Who is still alive? I didn't see Part 2 yet. Maybe I will rent it tonight. ... Well, in the case where you're going to have sequels, the ending doesn't give complete closure to the story because if it did, why would anyone want to see the sequel for? But the "ending" of the first Kill Bill did technically give closure to the plot in that it answered the storyline/story question, which had to do with revenge. Did the main character get her revenge? Did she succeed in killing the people on her list? The answer is either "yes," "no," or "yes, but..."
I don't think a story can be told in one scene. There are short stories, short shorts, flash fiction, etc., but a clip showing one scene is more like a sound byte.
D
DerekEastham
Guest
I think you misunderstand what I mean by "Begining" and "Ending"... there's always some form of a begining or ending to a story... wherever you jump into the story line at...
what I mean by saying that you don't always have to have those... is that you don't have to start the movie at the birth of your main character and end it with their death.
At the end of part 2, I won't say who's still alive here... don't like to post spolers for anyone who hasn't seen it... so I'll PM it to ya.
As for the telling of a story in one scene... well, it all depends on the story... to each his/her own, but I've seen many really great shorts that are all of one scene...
I've also seen many that have more than one scene that are also great...
it just depends on what the story is... and how the director is going to tell it.
what I mean by saying that you don't always have to have those... is that you don't have to start the movie at the birth of your main character and end it with their death.
At the end of part 2, I won't say who's still alive here... don't like to post spolers for anyone who hasn't seen it... so I'll PM it to ya.
As for the telling of a story in one scene... well, it all depends on the story... to each his/her own, but I've seen many really great shorts that are all of one scene...
I've also seen many that have more than one scene that are also great...
it just depends on what the story is... and how the director is going to tell it.
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