A Sound Guy Sounds Off

[Bob Kessler]

Hi all,

Please excuse me, but I have to get this off of my chest.

I have been working as a sound designer/audio post engineer and location recordist for about three years now. Before that I was a performer, including touring with an internationally recognized recording group, and as a recording engineer, not to mention all of the “real world” jobs that you have to do before you get here.

What is it with Producers and Directors who relegate the sound of their films to an after thought? Without sound your film is just a bunch of pretty pictures without meaning. And yet you refuse to budget a reasonable amount of money to the sound of your project.

SOUND IS HALF THE EXPERIENCE - Steven Spielberg

Why is it that less than 5% your budget goes towards the sound of your film?
Why is it that your location recordist (if you even bother to retain one) is an inconvenience to be worked around?
Why is it that many of us in the audio post production field spend most of our time trying to clean up lousy location audio?
Why is it that you want a sound designer to somehow magically make a scene (or entire project) work?

A FILM IS 50% SOUND!!!

Try watching a film with the sound turned off and see if you can figure out what’s going on. Then listen to it with the picture turned off. Which medium provides the most information?

I recently watched that series on IFC about NYU film students. One of them didn’t “want to have to deal with ” location sound and “couldn’t be bothered” with the audio post production of his project. Well, at the screening people couldn’t understand what the characters were saying. (He failed.) This kind of attitude prevails even at the “Hollywood” level. Somehow the sound will magically be made to work and save the project.

When you were floating in your mothers womb your ears worked at 4 months. You could hear your mothers heartbeat and the sounds of the world around her. Your hearing was the first sense that provided you with any information about the world. Even after you were born you recognized voices long before you recognized faces, and long before you could make causal connections with your other senses.

Many of the “great” “classic” films made in the last 30 years or so included the sound designer in the pre-production process. Many of the “great” directors pay an enormous amount of attention to the sound of their films. Maybe this is why they are stand-outs. Back in the late’20s and early’30s sound was king! The location recording engineer had the power to cut a take if the sound was not perfect, because the sound on the set was the only sound there was. There wasn't any audio post production of any kind; no ADR, no music editing, no Foley, no sound effects. Everything, dialog, sound effects and music, was recorded and mixed LIVE on the set. And it all had to be consistent from edit to edit.

Sound has (by many) been relegated to a “technical” exercise. Believe it or not, sound designers are just as creative as your production designer, DP/cinematographer, or any other person associated with your project. A sound designer can immeasurably improve your work if consulted during pre-production. In conjunction with your location sound engineer, involving the sound designer during the pre-production process can provide new insights into your work, refine your shot list, quantify your props and streamline the post production process, saving you time and money.

I’m sorry for the long diatribe, but it needed to be said.


For more information regarding film sound go to: www.filmsound.org
It is a priceless resource.

 

[rarobles]

That's it Bob, let it all out... :roll:

I agree, most indie films lack good sound. But at least to what I've seen recently, people are beginig to be more aware that the sound (fx, ambiance, dialog, score, etc.) is just as important as the moving pictures, so hopefully this will start to improve. An example of this are the shorts being showcased here in studentfilmmakersforums.com, most of them have good sound, not all, but most do. At least on the projects I've worked I've tried to get the best posible sound during production so I don't have to fix it in post.

 

[DBXMe2]

I shoot 16mm film... its silent, and it stands on its own.

So... even though you might think sound is all that, without a "pretty picture" all you'll have is a radio And further more, an image can be broken down and studied aestheticly. Frame composition, color, light, no light, type of lens used, location, actors, angles, you name it. Granted sound has its own set of stuff that can be broken down for analysis, but dont say to people that you cant have a good movie because sound is half the experiance. There is ALOT of different types of filmmaking out there... not only Industrial Narrative... there's indipendant narrative, documentary, experimental... after that it falls into video... which is not film.. but still a branch of cinema. SO yea...

sorry to hear you had bad experiences with producers and directors...

 

[smanches]

He's not saying you can't create a great quality silent film, but you didn't hire an audio engineer to help make it better, did you? The expectation of many producers/directors is that the sound quality must match the film quality, yet they are unwilling to listen to the specialists they hired to make that happen.

Take a good quality picuture. The soundtrack can make it a great film, or it can make it crappy film. It's only a matter of the effort you put into it.

 

[Sid Barnhoorn]

Hi Uncle Bob and Smanches,

I totally agree with you. Also since I'm a filmcomposer of course so I totally know what you're talking about but luckily I've had the fortune to work with directors who were soundtrack-freaks so that makes life alot easier and so does discussing the score as well. Same goes for sound. If you've got a good film with great visuals and the sound is crappy with phasing in it and all that stuff which you don't want and the music is even worse than these things will degrade the entire film considerably. Which, unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately for my own efforts into scoring, I witnessed with a film I was asked to rescore because the music wasn't what the director wanted and in my opinion he was right. I also added that they'd needed to get a good soundesigner/foley artist to redo the sound as well because that was even more hidious, which eventually degraded a perfectly cool film which is a real pity.

Cheers,

 

[MrBonquista]

here's a good video that the sound itself makes it a great film even tho the picture quality lacks that of a professional look.
http://www.piczo.com/bonquista?g=21437803&cr=1 i added every sound and sound effect in after the shooting was complete, the music is 'monumental'

 

[Bob Kessler]

Thanks for the support guys.

DBXMe2 - Silent is an artistic choice. If use sound in the future are you going to settle for garbage? My point was if you are going to have sound in your film you ought to think about it before you shoot, not when you're in post and it suddenly becomes a problem. I spend many hours (and to be honest, make a few dollars) fixing terrible location sound. I recently worked on a short where the client payed me three times the money to clean up bad sound than it would have cost her to hire a good location audio crew. The project went from sounding horrible to sounding passable. Isn't it better to start with solid location sound and then have the finished product sound great?

I've also had terrific experiences with producers and directors. Next week I start work on a feature where I was included in the pre-production back in May and have been involved every step of the way. Some of my suggestions changed pieces of the script. Others changed some of the editing in post. It has been a collaborative effort on the part of everyone involved and the project is stronger for it. We've discussed the characters, their relationships, the mood of the film; I've been in touch with the composer on a regular basis. All this has given me a definite direction and the ability to augment all the different pieces of the film. Ian has very determined, forceful footsteps. Shelly has timid footsteps. It's early summer in a small town. The score will be sparse and haunting. And a thousand other tiny details. This is the way film making is supposed to be, all of the different disciplines working together to create a cohesive work.

 

[DBXMe2]

Usualy, in editing all problems are delt with for sound. This is my personal experiance and those of my Professors which all have made industry films for many years. What I am told is that, for example. If you have "bob" drinking coffee while he is talking to "person X" and he's sturing his coffee with a metal spoon, then the tinkle noise would peek out. So, you would get him on camera, just talking with him sturing but not hitting the sides of his cup, then once the shots are done, the sound recordist would ask "bob" to do the tinckle and he would record it, as so they could add it in post.

But usualy, its quiet on set, and the sound recordist knows what to record, and what to record afterwards. Usualy you also just do a bunch of recording of sound afterwards... Because you want to be able to control those tracks, and not have them all on the same track, as so you can mix it togeather in the end. So ambiance in one track, lines in another track, sound effects in another, narration if you've got some... etc.

This is how I've been told that sound guys usualy work?

But hey, if the sound sucks on location, then the guy doesnt know what he's doing and isnt forth comming enough to tell everyone to shut up.

But I understand you, I've done some sound recording with Nagras and Dat recorders, and then transfered over to Pro Tools to do the final Dub. Was fun.

 

[Bob Kessler]

Looks like I'm preaching to the choir here.

Once again, if the producer/director doesn't think about sound BEFORE shooting begins, there's going to be problems.

I worked on a feature last fall where the director was incapable of listening to anyone. Despite the strongest urgings of the location recordist (who is an Emmy award winner and Oscar nominee) and myself he insisted on a location because it looked great. It was in an industrial area near a busy train yard, a major highway and directly under the approach of an airport. They were shooting interiors!!! He then blamed the location guy for recording such poor material and gave me a really hard time for being unable to clean it up to his satisfaction. He didn't even get room tones ("It takes too long and it's not important").

As far as the set-up for audio post is concerned, I usually have two to four tracks of dialog, two or more tracks of Foley per character, four to ten tracks for sound FX, two to six tracks for ambience and two tracks for music, along with Aux return busses, usually six or eight. This is, of course, very variable depending upon the project and the requirements of the scenes. Just to give you a point of reference, the Lord of the Rings Trilogy used FIVE 256 track Pro Tools systems synched together; that's over 1,200 tracks of audio!

Since all of you seem to know that quality sound is important please help me to spread the word. I go to screenings of indie shorts and features regularly and am appalled by the quality of the sound I'm hearing.

THANX!!!!!!!!!

 

[temerson]

I concur. And besides? Have any of you guys seen the sound guys work? They get to do some of the coolest stuff ever. Even when I'm producing and not directing, I feel a tinge of envy!

 

[Rogue Crew]

Why are you posting this here? This is studentfilmmakers.com, not producers-and-directors-with-big-budgets.com. If you want to be helpful to those that might make it to that level, then write some posts on what to do and what not to do. "Doing Your Best on a Shoestring," "Take Your Production Sound to the Next Level." etc.

Not many people here with budgets at all, but I'll bet my annual equipment budget, that they would all like to learn something about sound (production and post) from someone in the business.

 

[MarkG]

Why are you posting this here? This is studentfilmmakersforums.com, not producers-and-directors-with-big-budgets.com.

Probably because bad sound is one of the biggest faults of student and amateur movies, and it's not hard to avoid with some forethought: like checking the locations aren't too noisy before you shoot there.

For example, one student short I recorded sound on they'd chosen to shoot a scene outside a fried chicken place at a major cross-roads, with the actors sitting next to a loud air vent blowing hot air out of the store. We did our best to get some kind of usable sound despite the traffic, customers and fans, but needless to say that scene didn't make it into the movie.

 

[Rogue Crew]

Well exactly, Mark. Many newbies and even pros make huge errors and oversights when it comes to sound. My point was, why post an endess rant, when for the same effort, a considered tutorial could have been provided for the benefit of all. It's also not the only thread where 'Uncle Bob' has said essentialy the same thing, and saying "A FILM IS 50% SOUND!!!" is hardly enlightening, now is it.

 

[MarkG]

saying "A FILM IS 50% SOUND!!!" is hardly enlightening, now is it.

It is, for people who think that movies are all about pictures. Your audience will complain far less about a movie with good sound shot on VHS than a movie with bad sound shot on IMAX, but most low-budget movie skimp on sound in favor of picture.

 

[Lazlo]

Well exactly, Mark. Many newbies and even pros make huge errors and oversights when it comes to sound. My point was, why post an endess rant, when for the same effort, a considered tutorial could have been provided for the benefit of all. It's also not the only thread where 'Uncle Bob' has said essentialy the same thing, and saying "A FILM IS 50% SOUND!!!" is hardly enlightening, now is it.

Please stop complaining about him being frustrated... He has every reason to be. I am sure given time and questions he will offer greater insight. People are allowed to be angry, and voice it. Its called free speech. Try being sensitive......... is it that hard??

 

[Bob Kessler]

Why are you posting this here? This is studentfilmmakersforums.com, not producers-and-directors-with-big-budgets.com

Why did I post here? Well, RogueCrew, who needs to hear it more? If a freshman film maker starts thinking about sound from the first day he/she walks into film school won't they be a better film maker? I'm sure that like most people you just glanced at my post instead of really reading it. I am hoping that young film makers will think about the "other half" of their project before they begin shooting. Wouldn't it be better to spend $1,000.00 on a great location sound crew and not $4,000.00 on extensive noise reduction and ADR in post?

If you want to be helpful to those that might make it to that level, then write some posts on what to do and what not to do. "Doing Your Best on a Shoestring," "Take Your Production Sound to the Next Level." etc.

First I have to convince them that sound is important to begin with. And I just gave advice for "Doing Your Best on a Shoestring,", Pay attention to your location sound!

"A FILM IS 50% SOUND!!!" is hardly enlightening, now is it.

It is if you never thought about it! Again, that's my point, most young film makers don't think about it until it's much too late.

 

[Filmosity]

Unclebob, I like your point, and I think it's a relevant one. RogueCrew, everyone is welcome here at Studentfilmmakers.com. After all, who are the students going to learn from but the pros?

Anyway, make your points, but keep the convo civil guys (not that you haven't been...just taking precautionary measures).

My take is, sound is super important, and for MANY filmmakers, it's an afterthought. But some filmmakers see it as very important, and it shows. unclebob, perhaps you could give us some examples of your favorite and least favorite films in terms of sound designs.

And I love war stories. Give us some more war stories!

 

[Bob Kessler]

Hi Filmosity,

I try to avoid making negative comments about specific films, I may want to work with those people some day!

As far as great sound design and mixing here's a few favorites:

The Conversation

Apocalypse Now

Saving Private Ryan

The English Patient

Who Framed Roger Rabbit

Forrest Gump

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy

The Harry Potter films

The Changeling

The Incredibles


This is just a short list, there are many, many more.

As a general dis', I dislike the current trend of reliance on sound effects libraries. I have a fourteen year old daughter and a four year old daughter, and I recognize the sounds effects used in the programs they watch from the HB and WB cartoon sound FX libraries. This use of sound FX libraries is prevelent throughout the TV and film industry. It drives me crazy when I watch a movie and know that a particular sound effect is from the General 6000 library, disk 36 track 72. That's not to say that I haven't had to use them myself, but I at least try to adapt them rather than just use them as is.

There is one sound effect that has become a running gag in the audio post circles. It's a scream called the Wilhelm. If you have a battle or fight scene you try to fit it in somewhere and all your fellow sound designers play "Find the Wilhelm." It's been in five out six Star Wars films, LOTR and King Kong just to name a very few.

I create as many of my own sound effects as possible. For a sound designer that is the fun part of the job. I spent two days riding and chasing a Harley while wired for sound. I've spent evenings beating the living daylights out of various objects with a crow bar and a baseball bat. In a couple of weeks I'll be spending an afternoon breaking bottles, dishes and sheets of plate glass. Over the summer I will be recording the gun collection of a friend of my brother-in-law. I did a short last year where the main character overdoses on Viagra and creating a sound for every time he "came to attention" was a challenge and a lot of fun. I'm recording in the field at least twice month, mostly to gather ambiences and vehicles. In fact the police in my town don't even ask "what the hell are you doing here?" any more; now it's "Oh, hi Bob, how's the film coming?".

Anyway, I am always available to answer whatever questions I can.

 

[Filmosity]

I know the Wilhelm scream...I use it in my podcast! Very funny stuff.

anyway, sound design has fascinated me more and more over the last few years as I've become more aware of it. I'll try to keep in touch with you...maybe you can give me some pointers.

 

[MarkG]

Yeah, sound design can be one of the most creative jobs on a movie: particularly as it rarely costs millions of dollars to add the right sounds to a scene, unlike visual effects, and adding the right sounds can significantly change the way that a scene plays.