resoultion question

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Nevada

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i think i am a little confused on frame rates. movies are done in 24 FPS and TV is done in 30 FPS correct? what does 24 do that the 30 does not? i assume the "P" in 24P stands for progressive scan. i am still trying to figure out what canera i should get. it has occured to me that i am stuck on one that does 24P but i am not sure why other than it looks more movie like (if that is indeed correct).

thx!
 
Standard NTSC interlaced cameras shoot 60 fields per second (59.94 actually) and since there are two fields per frame of video, that's 30 fps. But it is actually capturing 60 images per second -- it's just that each image is only a field containing alternate lines necessary to build-up a frame. This is why when the fields are combined, moving objects have a sawtoothed edge since they exist in one position on one field but had moved to a new position on the alternating set of lines.

Also, most often these 60i cameras are shot without a shutter engaged, so there are no temporal gaps. This works out to be a 1/60th exposure time per frame at 60i.

Film cameras, on the other hand, most often shoot at 24 fps with a 180 degree shutter that is closed 50% of the time (180 being half of 360 -- the shutter is a spinning half-circle moving in front of the gate.) So at 24 fps, the shutter speed is 1/48th of a second.

This accounts for the extreme difference in the way motion appears when comparing a 24 fps film camera footage to something shot at 60i. At 60i, you have 60 motion samples per second and often no temporal gaps in that motion, whereas with a film camera you typically have 24 motion samples per second with only half the time spent actually seeing the motion. This accounts for the strobier motion of film compared to the hyper-real fluidity of standard interlaced-scan video.

Progressive-scan video cameras emulate film by capturing reality as whole frames at the lower rate of film cameras (24, 25, 30 fps). All three speeds have a similar look, the higher ones looking smoother (but start to get closer to that video look.) For example, on the Varicam, you can even shoot at 60P, 60 fps, but if you played that back at 60 fps, instead of at 24 fps for a slow-motion effect, it looks very video-ish because of the smooth motion. In fact, the motion rendition is the same as a 60i camera.

Since standard def video cameras can only record & display in NTSC or PAL, then the progressive-scan standard def cameras have to record the 24P/25P/30P capture as either 60i (NTSC) or 50i (PAL). It's similar to when transferring film to video on a telecine -- 24 fps film gets converted to 60i by adding a 3:2 pulldown. 30 fps film doesn't need a pulldown because simply splitting each frame into two fields gets you 60. But with 24 fps, that would only get you 48, so 12 more fields have to be added to create 60. With a PAL camera, you can use 25P and simply split that into two fields to get 50i.

The reason why film isn't shot more often at 30 fps if the transfer will be to 60i NTSC is the same reason why people use 24P more often than the 30P option, even though 30P looks a little smoother and has no pulldown to deal with: sometimes the same project may have to be transferred to film and shown at 24 fps, or it may have to be released also in PAL (50i or 25 fps) And 30 does not convert well into 24 or 25. But 24 converts better into 60, or at least, we've become used to that look after decades of watching 24 fps movies transferred and shown in NTSC.

So if your project is only for display at 60i (NTSC or 1080i HDTV) or webcasting, then shooting 30P is fine, but otherwise, use 24P. But in terms of the film look aspect, 24P, 25P, and 30P are more similar to each other than they are to classic 60i/50i photography.
 
thx

thx

thx for the great reply! i have definatley learned something. so for student film projects 30fps should be fine or would you go for the 24p? i guess my goal is to make movies for school and the indpendent film competitions. ok i am off to read your post again. thx!
 
Are you asking if 30P is OK instead of 24P, or if standard 60i (30 fps) is OK instead of 24P? There's a difference between 30P and 30 fps. "30P" is specifically 30 frames-per-second progressive-scan capture, whether or not it then gets recorded to 60i. "30 fps" can mean standard 60 fields per second interlaced-scan or 30P, so it's not clear what you're asking.

Are you using a camera with a 24P/30P option like the DVX100 or Canon XL2?
 
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i need to read the post again. i guess i am not clear what i am asking either. i am trying to figure out what camera i should go with. i have been looking at the dvx100b but it is at the top end of my price range at the moment. i was looking at it because it can do 24P. i was wondering how important that would be for the film circuit and student projects VS ?. i have been looking at the DCV30 as well.

thx!
 
"How important" is a personal choice you have to make. How important is a "film look" to you and your project? There's no law saying that you have to have it. You can transfer anything pretty much to film, you can convert almost anything to anything else, the only issues are how much quality loss can you live with, or your potential buyer accept.

If you can afford the DVX100B or Canon XL2, I say get one of those, but if you can't, you can't, so don't beat yourself up over it. If you're not convinced you need the look of 24P, then why spend extra money for it? You're supposed to be following your own aesthetic impulses and goals, not trying to second-guess other people's tastes. If you just do something because other people tell you to do it, you'll be lost as an artist. You have to go with what you respond to as an artist. Look at some 24P from the DVX100 and look at some 60i from the cheaper camera you want to get and decide which look serves your vision the best.
 
thx

thx

ok thx dave for the good advice. I guess i am getting too focused on the tech and not the art. good advice!

thx!
 

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