Terrified?

P

pharpsied

New member
Now that the WGA strike is closing and deals are being made, is anyone else afraid about what this is going to mean for independents using the internet? I mean now Hollywood is getting into our underground... it's the same thing that happened in music. Independent filmmakers are in grave danger from this. There will be no distribution channels left for us very soon. With the Hollywood machine throwing money that we don't have at problems that we have to be creative to solve, no one's project will be safe. SpikeTV has already taken over a site and crushed the people's production values with LA flash.

I don't really want to be a Hollywood mover and shaker, I like my soul right where it is, that being said, we are going to find ourselves in the sh*t if we don't do something right now to create our niche and keep it from the lions.

What do you all think?
 
oh... I almost forgot

the concerned-psied
 
The movie world is become increasingly fucked up. I just hope that there's going to be an outlet for the indie film makers in a couple of years, otherwise the indie filmaker is going to become an endangered if not extinct spieces.
 
cybersarge said:
The movie world is become increasingly puck up. I just hope that there's going to be an outlet for the indie film makers in a couple of years, otherwise the indie filmaker is going to become an endangered if not extinct spieces.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree, and I don't think that enough of us are taking this threat seriously.
 
I agree and disagree. First I think the large film industries are taking over. They have somewhat done that with Sundance and the internet is the next step. What I disagree about is that indie filmmakers will become endangered or extinct. With digital technology coming out for consumer use I think its time for indie filmmakers to step up their skill sets to another level. Maybe an older generation of indie filmmakers will go away but the technology and equipment available has come a long ways from several years ago. The Coen Bros. used Final Cut Studio extensively for No Country For Old Men and quite a few industry pros are going more towards the software. As with any type of change I think indie filmmakers like us just have to adapt. We still have forums, blogs, vlogs, and so on to post our work. The internet is becoming so huge I'd imagine in a little while we will be presenting our material on other mediums other than the internet. When and what that is I don't know.
 
But what about our distribution methods? The world is closing due to the impact and power of the internet. So many of us can get work to various countries and peoples all over the world; but honestly, can you break through to the same audience when the Hollywood machine comes rolling through? Yes, technology is changing- yes, solutions, more affordable and more powerful solutions, are available to us, but when we go up against the deus ex machina that is...

you know what...

Tell me how we get our pictures to the general public when we have HW buying distribution outlets in order to secure their digital distribution monies.

Tell me how to get funding and payback loans when it costs millions to even be a contender, so getting projects into the hands of the paying public is very important, and blocked by HW backed projects that already have the millions.

Tell me how much more we have to adapt to the changing landscapes before we mutate into shallow hacks or tech junkies that ignore the art of filmmaking because they have to.

the done psied
 
Look at it this way people are more likely to pay for an indie and steal a HW one, because the HW film would more accesible (sp?). In all honesty who here has made money by broadcasting their work via the internet? Or has it all been made through online sales of an actual DVD?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, Carm
 
I honestly have no intentions of making money through independent filmmaking right now. I don't have a desire to break though to the mainstream, "Hollywood" audience. What is that, 14 year olds and PG-13 horror flicks. Going back to the main argument which is distribution, you just have to prove what you can do. It may be harder but if you keep the style of independent filmmaking alive, people will notice. It may not be the "Hollywood" crowd but people will support. I think that is way more important than the one hit wonders you see coming out in theaters that gross $20 mil the opening weekend and then just go away and never are seen again.
 
How can you say that you have no intentions of making money through independent filmmaking right now? Now is the time. I run across this as a musician. When people refuse payment, or create works and say that they are not interested in payment, or take less money than they are worth, that saturates the market with amateurs (honestly) and that in turn lessens the impact of the independent culture. Also, when musicians, or any professional for that matter, decide that they are not in it for the money, the purchasing public becomes accustomed to not paying what the art is worth… that in turn makes it more difficult for others to get fair amounts for their effort which leads them to try to break in to the HW system by making shallow, contrived one hit wonder movies for 14 year olds and PG-13 horror flicks when they should be concentrating on their art, on their craft, and on their skill. I mean, people have got to eat, right?

Unfortunately, the style of independent filmmaking is dying fast, partly because HW is cooping it for street cred. How should be deal with that?
 
It does flood the market with amateurs, I saw it in high school where everyone decided they were in a band... and none of them played instruments. I'm a student in film school. I don't plan on selling and distributing my work just yet. In the future of course it would be nice to make money, either as an independent filmmaker or in the industry. To me there is a vast difference between the film industry and, "Hollywood." My interpretation of Hollywood is a one mile stretch of Hollywood Blvd. between Highland and La Brea. The industry is where you have the countless workers who are all involved in these films but never are recognized as much as the actors, writers, and directors. I've spent time at Warner Bros. in Burbank, CA and Universal and most of the guys there aren't what most people perceive as the, "Hollywood" crowd.

I'm not saying that all our Independent filmmaking should be free because that would indeed flood the market with amateurs, i.e. YouTube. I do think however that independent filmmakers should recognize the fact that large corporations are threatening independent filmmaking. It's always been like that in one form of work or another, retail with Wal-Mart, industry with Microsoft, and so on. I think Independent Filmmaking is a tighter group than the industry and people will recognize that.
 
Let's throw in the currently revealed fact that the indie market can not afford the DRM licensing fees for Blu Ray distribution, the only folks who can afford that are the major Hollywood bullies.
 
Holy Crap!

After a cursory glance at the fees, $10,000 up to $25,000 advance plus royalties, I have to say wow. This only serves to strengthen the argument. My question to you all is, what are we going to do now?
 
More and more indie films are going with on-line download distribution. You can encode your movie to be used on things like a Tivo, Apple TV, iPod, etc.

I read two articles recently about studies showing that over the past year and a half, the majority of movie and TV show rentals were on-line downloads, and not getting physical discs from Block Buster. These studies are also showing that a very large percentage of TV shows that are available as downloads from sources such as iTunes, are being watched mostly by downloads, and not during their regular broadcast times via broadcast signal.

Blu Ray is going to be dead before it becomes the norm. Only a small fraction of house holds in the country at the moment have any sort of high definition, and only a fraction of those have high definition optical disc players of any kind. More of them have things like Tivo and Apple TV devices than Blu Ray or HD DVD players.

What Steve Jobs calls the On Line & Wireless future is on us. We're not talking about technologies that are being developed, we're talking about technologies and delivery systems that are actually being used TODAY.

There are several places on-line were an indie producer can sell their work as a download HD video file. I, personally, feel their growth will increase faster than the growth of Blu Ray. I feel since Blu Ray will be the mostly exclusive domain of the Hollywood big bullies, that limitation will hurt it a great deal.

The general public has already shown they are hungry for independent films. Hollywood can't stop that. So if the only way to get them is on-line downloadsl, then on-line downloads will become more and more readily available, and grow faster than Bu Ray. It's already started, it's just a matter of indie film makers pushing it, and the general public becoming aware of how easily and much more affordable it is.

Imagine, selling your own movie, no packaging or shipping or any of that overhead, you could make more profit selling it for less!

And if you do your homework, yes, there are indie films making money selling on-line. Put down your XBox, set the film school's isolated/protective classroom shell aside, and get out into the real world of the film BUSINESS. Money is, and can be made selling indie films. On-line is simply a delivery method. Promotion is still required. And if you can't promote your film, it won't sell no matter what delivery method you use.
 
I fervently agree, BenB, sorry for the rhyme, but that is the crux of the argument. Hollywood is encroaching on our digital domain. They are oozing into our distribution markets and the web is no longer our sanctuary. The invasion is as virulent and rude as the assault on Rosewood, the invasion of Normandy, or the destruction of villages and settlements by the Tusken Raiders on Tatooine... I mean, c'mon!

How do we secure our place in the marketplace when HW realizes that their new toys suck and turn their attention to trying to kick us off the playground ?
 
Well, the fact is, Hollywood is not intruding on the Internet as harshly as you claim. In fact, Hollywood is being very slow about it. Indie film producers have been using the Internet more fully for longer than Hollywood has. Hollywood is late to the game as far as download deliverables go. You're over reacting quit a bit.

Hollywood can't "take over" the Internet or download distribution, as they have for Blu Ray. There is no physical mechanism for them to kick "us" off the Internet.
 
On October 15, 2005, MTV Networks, a division of Viacom (which also holds BET, Comedy Central, MTV, VH1, CMT and Nickelodeon) bought ifilm, a viral video and short film site founded by an independent filmmaker as a video collective. Now it is Spike.com powered by ifilm, and not worth the trouble. Nowadays, good shows are being optioned and turned into HW film and TV projects. The projects that are good are given more wide spread distribution and a higher production budget, but at what price... This is the same industry that killed Arrested Development and that was the best sitcom in human history according to a lot of people. This is not a slow process and it's not the start of HW paying attention to the internet. This has been going on for years, and the same technology you quoted is and has been the gateway for the invasion. HW makes exclusive webisodes of their most popular TV shows and they kill my production values right now, what about you? The propagation of content has only been bolstered by itunes, Amazon, AppleTV, and Xbox Marketplace... where have you been? How am I over reacting quite a bit? I see this happening right now. I am watching this happen right now.
And so are you...

Writers strike- Wikipedia, verified by a WGA member


"One critical issue for the negotiations is residuals for "new media", or compensation for delivery channels such as Internet downloads, IPTV, streaming, smart phone programming, straight-to-Internet content, and other "on-demand" online distribution methods, along with video on demand on cable and satellite television."

...and this directly from the WGA site...

An overwhelming majority of the WGA membership voted in favor of ratifying the three-year contract by 93.6 percent of 4,060 votes cast in Los Angeles and New York. The term of the agreement is from February 13, 2008 through May 1, 2011.

“This contract is a new beginning for writers in the Digital Age,” said Patric M. Verrone, president of the WGAW. “It ensures that Guild members will be fairly compensated for the content they create for the Internet, and it also covers the reuse on new media platforms of the work they have done in film since 1971 and in TV since 1977. That's a huge body of work that will continue to generate revenue for our members for many years to come as it is distributed electronically.”

“The 2008 Minimum Basic Agreement is groundbreaking on many levels,” said Michael Winship, president of the WGAE. “Not only does it establish Writers Guild jurisdiction in new media, it gives writers the same separated rights provisions in new media enjoyed by the creators of original TV and motion picture scripts, as well as residuals for the reuse of movies and television programs on the Internet and in new media. Those residuals will be based on 'distributor's gross' - real money for our members - that we'll be able to audit and monitor more effectively than ever before.”

The contract breaks new ground for writers by:

* establishing WGA jurisdiction over writing for new media

* giving writers “separated rights” in new media content (separated rights are the contractual rights traditionally enjoyed by writers of original television and motion picture scripts)

* establishing residual payments for new media reuse of covered material, including Internet downloads and ad-supported streaming of feature films and television programs

* establishing “distributor's gross” as the basis for calculating new media residual payments

* creating meaningful access to information and auditing tools that will allow the WGA to monitor the development of new media markets

The balloting was conducted by mail ballots and walk-in voting at membership meetings in Los Angeles and New York City. Ratification follows the WGA's lifting of a strike order on February 13, which ended a 100-day work stoppage.

How will they pay for this if we (and by we I apparently mean every other indie and low-budget filmmaker except you, BenB {ie. "us"in the last post} ) are in the way? There may not be a physical "mechanism" for exclusion, but there are physical "means" of exclusion that can and will be employed if deemed necessary...

Think on these things...
 
Again, you're over reacting. I never thought Arrested Development was all that great, outside of it's cult Twin Peaks like following.

There are in fact places other than the pop-culture sites you mention where indie films can find distribution. Just cause Hollywood owns a few pop-culture sites does not mean they are killing the indie film market. Not by a long shot.

Do a little homework and you'll find as many indie film outlets on line as there are Hollywood film outlets.

And indie film makers are not worried about sit coms and TV.

To quote a wise man, "In order to predict the future, make the future." I'm very involved with the development and spread of indie film outlets on the Internet. I'm the guy you should be praising, not bashing. I'm not a student, I'm a producer, consultant, author, educator, I'm doing my part to make a difference. So don't cry to me, I don't have time for whining. I'm too busy making a difference for indie film makers.

Here's my personal challenge to you, "pharpsied"; What are you personally doing to correct the problem, beside crying about it? What can YOU do to get out there and help the indie film market thrive on-line?

I know I am devoting a lot of time and resources to it, and Hollywood doesn't bother me one bit. Not a single bit, because the truth is they can't "exclude" anyone from the Internet, period. And MTV and all the networks you mention are just a drop in the whole Internet bucket. Simple math.

What are you actively doing about it?

The WGA didn't get everything it wanted, only enough to keep the door open for growth in the future. We're talking about a market in it's infancy. I also have a problem with the WGA putting a LOT of non-writers out of jobs they are not getting back now that the strike is over. It was poorly handled, and is a subject that should go on another post. It has no bearing on the indie film market getting distribution on-line.
 
I'd just like to say thank you to BenB for saying what I couldn't quite put into words.

I also think that Hollywood having a closer eye on the internet is good for those indie filmmakers who one day would like to make that crossover into mainstream filmmaking. It really is giving us more exposure.[/quote]
 
I guess I will jump into this rather alarmist thread to contribute my 2¢. I like all you guys, but there is quite a bit in here with which I disagree.

I don’t believe anyone is:
• in grave danger
• nearing extinction
• going to be crushed

I do believe that:
• indie filmmakers have more opportunity and power than any previous time in history
• it doesn’t cost millions to be a contender
• there are more distribution channels and methods now than ever, and new ones are being invented every week (this is no exaggeration)

Clever entrepreneurs, dedicated artists, and truly creative individuals can succeed - if they are really, really, really good at what they do. There is no entry path for the mediocre.

There is really no room for even good work. It must be outstanding to compete, and rise above the noise floor. It takes talent, time and total dedication.

Terrified? We should be elated.

Feel free to tell me where I am wrong.
 
Thats exactly what I said earlier. I think people just need to step up if they want to succeed. Its easier now more than ever with the technology we have for consumer, prosumer, and professional use. If you are good at what you do people will notice.
 
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